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专题：对话ESG全球领导者

　　新浪财经ESG评级中心提供包括资讯、报告、培训、咨询等在内的14项ESG服务，助力上市公司传播ESG理念，提升ESG可持续发展表现。点击查看【ESG评级中心服务手册】

　　文 | 新浪财经 李欣然

　　当前，在向更加绿色、更可持续的未来迈进的过程中，金融机构发挥着重要的作用。他们通过投融资来助力资本流向那些符合可持续发展理念的领域和行业。可持续金融领域存在哪些风险和机遇？银行应如何将环境和社会等因素纳入日常投融资决策？AI的发展会对可持续金融产生哪些助益？就以上问题，新浪财经对话荷兰国际集团（以下简称ING）全球可持续发展负责人Anne-Sophie Castelnau女士。

　　Anne-Sophie强调，ING将可持续发展作为核心战略，致力于通过金融手段推动低碳经济转型。她认为，基于科学研究和数据分析，全球迫切需要向低碳经济转型。作为服务企业和零售客户双重领域的银行，ING旨在覆盖全客户群体并注重客户参与，通过审视融资领域、评估客户数据，识别高排放行业并助力其转型。

　　Anne-Sophie指出，可持续发展领域蕴藏着巨大的商业机遇。当前，全球向低碳经济转型需要巨额投资。ING为可再生能源融资设定了宏伟目标，计划每年筹集1500亿欧元用于可持续金融，助力客户完成绿色转型。此外，ING自身数据也显示，可持续发展相关交易数量呈现持续增长的趋势。在风险管理方面，银行重点关注气候和环境问题所带来的物理风险与转型风险，并据此更新内部流程，以更好地应对相应风险。

　　尽管当前ESG在一些地区和国家遇冷，但Anne-Sophie明确表示，ING依然坚定地致力于可持续发展，并坚信企业必须切实转变运营方式以应对气候变化的挑战。她提出，我们应以气候问题为起点，同时展望未来，还需在自然和生物多样性保护等领域付出更多努力。

　　谈及中国在可持续发展领域的现状，Anne-Sophie对中国在气候治理方面的雄心与政策表示赞赏，尤其是中国在电动汽车、电池生产及可再生能源投资等关键领域所取得的令人印象深刻的进展。展望未来，她认为中欧之间在可持续发展领域应加强对话，分享想法和最佳实践，以加速全球经济的绿色转型。

　　以下为对话实录：

　　Q：我们了解到，ING致力于将可持续发展作为核心战略。请问为什么ING如此重视可持续发展？ING是如何将ESG标准融入金融战略和决策过程中的？您能否举例说明，可持续发展相关的考量如何影响具体的投资或贷款决策？

　　A：这个话题非常广泛，从一开始就是个很有现实相关性的问题。我们为什么如此关注它呢？实际上，我们一直秉持着以事实为依据的思路，高度重视针对这个话题展开的真实研究以及从中得出的科学反馈。在长期的研究积累过程中，我们不断收集到了越来越多的数据，随着这些数据的不断丰富，一个结论逐渐清晰地呈现在我们眼前，那就是当下的世界迫切需要实现一种经济模式的转变，向低碳经济转型。作为银行，我们为实体经济提供融资，因此我们有责任也愿意尽自己的一份力量。本质上，我们希望帮助客户减少碳排。我们也希望通过金融手段支持低碳世界的未来蓝图及其所需的解决方案与技术。并且，我们真心希望能找到让所有人都参与进来的方法，使人们采取行动来应对气候问题。我们既是一家企业银行，也是一家零售银行，因此，我们服务于从超大型企业到个人客户的全谱系客户。我们衷心希望我们的方法能够覆盖我们的所有客户群体。

　　但真正的关键在于我们如何支持这种转型和过渡。我们从研究应该从何处入手开始，识别出高排放行业，即我们提供金融支持并希望帮助其转型的行业——这正是我们认为自身可以发挥作用的地方。回到具体步骤，首先，我们审视自身的融资投向。为此，我们会分析所掌握的客户数据。然后，我们会考察他们是否正在对自身的流程和业务进行转型，以及我们能够如何提供支持。

　　因此，我们的方法主要包括两个方面。第一，我们注重客户参与，确保实现全面覆盖，并评估我们的计划对他们产生的影响。我们关注他们的“转型计划”—— 本质上是他们为实现向低碳经济转型采取了哪些措施。我们已开发出相应的评估方法，并已对约2000家主要客户进行了评估。我们会审查他们公开披露的信息质量与详尽程度、已制定的计划、排放报告方式、设定的减排目标，以及他们的整体战略。

　　在评估的基础上，我们与客户展开对话。这使我们能够专注于表现最佳的企业，确保我们为那些朝着正确方向发展的企业提供融资。但这也关乎推动其他客户做出改变。在某些时候，如果我们发现某个客户的发展方向与我们的目标不一致，我们可能会向他们表达我们的担忧，并在必要时决定终止提供融资。然而，我们的首要目标是理解并携手客户，以推动这一转变。

　　第二个方面是管理我们自身的投资组合，特别是在贷款脱碳方面。我们已经将气候因素纳入我们的决策流程中。当我们向高排放行业提供贷款时——作为我们的“Terra 方案”的一部分，我们重点关注 12 个关键行业——我们会确保这些客户的二氧化碳强度或排放量与我们实现贷款组合脱碳的目标相一致。因此，我们利用数据做出有依据的融资决策，并始终以客户参与为起点。

　　Q：在投资领域，风险和机遇几乎是首要关注点。您认为，将环境和社会因素纳入决策过程如何有助于风险管理？此外，您认为当前以及未来五年内有哪些与可持续发展相关的投资机会？

　　A：当我们审视环境和社会因素时，我们会从正反两面考虑——既看到机遇，也看到挑战。正如之前讨论我们为何这样做时提到的，我们坚信可持续发展是一个巨大的商业机会。因为世界向低碳经济转型需要巨额投资——巨额资本支出。目前已有大量相关报告，例如，国际能源署（IEA）指出，每年需要额外投入5万亿美元才能接近我们当前的全球变暖减缓目标，即到2030年将气温上升幅度限制在1.5至2摄氏度以内。这是一个巨大的数字。

　　作为银行，我们将这视为在早期阶段布局自身的战略机遇。如此一来，我们就能够脱颖而出，更贴近客户，最终从中获得更多业务。可再生能源是我们在能源转型中重点关注的领域之一。我们制定了雄心勃勃的目标，计划大幅增加对可再生能源的融资，力争达到每年75亿欧元。归根结底，我们希望将该领域的年度融资承诺提升至原来的三倍，与第28届联合国气候大会（COP28）达成的共识保持一致。

　　这也体现在我们的自身数据中。我们所完成的可持续发展相关交易数量持续增长，并且每年进行披露。2023年，我们完成了792笔此类交易，而去年，我们达到了835笔。这是一个非常积极的趋势。此外，我们还追踪一项名为“可持续动员资金”的指标，该指标涵盖所有与可持续发展相关的交易。我们密切关注该领域的增长，并见证了其在去年从1150亿欧元增长至1300亿欧元。我们甚至将其纳入了集团管理委员会的关键绩效指标（KPI），这表明该战略得到了组织高层的充分认可和支持，我们对可持续发展的关注正在取得成效。

　　最后，就机遇而言，我们对这一主题的重视以及与客户的互动使我们能够与他们进行更具战略性的对话。作为早期践行者并掌握这些战略洞察，我们的银行从业人员能够积累针对不同行业的专业知识。这使他们能够与我们的客户建立更牢固、更密切的关系。因此，他们完全有能力识别和把握更多的商业机会，尤其是在并购和企业融资等战略领域。所以，这种对可持续的关注确实有助于我们发展业务，并确保我们持续满足客户的需求。

　　另一方面，我们也要关注风险维度。作为银行，我们是风险管理者，我们需要预测潜在问题以保护我们的资产负债表。当然，我们希望贷款能够得到偿还。特别是气候和环境问题，带来了新的风险维度。首先，是物理风险。随着气候变化和生物多样性的丧失，我们面临着越来越多的洪水、干旱和其他挑战。这要求我们了解资产的分布情况，以及我们的客户及其价值链可能受到的影响。掌握这些气候、自然和社会因素是预测物理风险的关键。

　　此外是转型风险，与社会转型密切相关。当前正发生着诸多变化，我们需要将这些变化纳入框架，并融入自身流程之中。这些变化可能是新的政府政策或规则，例如碳定价，它们可能会影响客户的业绩或我们持有的抵押资产的估值。了解这些风险至关重要，因为它们也会影响我们资产负债表中的其他风险类型，例如流动性风险和声誉风险。因此，我们需要全面捕捉这些风险，将其整合到我们的政策中，并利用所有可用数据来指导和更新我们的流程。

　　总之，我们致力于同步推进机遇与风险这两条主线。

　　Q：您提到您认为可再生能源是一个机遇。但今年我们看到一些国家，例如美国，在鼓励发展传统能源。在这种背景下，您是否仍然认为可再生能源拥有非常光明的前景？

　　A：我认为，从当前的舆论噪音和政治环境对可持续发展议题所施加的压力中跳出来非常重要。世界已经在发生转型。可再生能源已经在全球经济中发挥关键作用。对电力的需求持续增长，这一点也在国际能源署的报告中也有明确体现。

　　因此，我相信对可再生能源的需求不会改变。虽然地方政府可能会调整政策来激励某些类型的能源，但从长远来看，气候变化的现实不会改变。我们每天都在目睹全球变暖带来的物理影响。政策上或许会有一些起伏，但总体而言，这仍将是未来发展的趋势。正如我们有时所说，“列车已经离站”，我毫不怀疑我们对可持续发展的持续承诺。

　　此外，考虑到可再生能源已具备的规模和市场份额，太阳能可能是当今最便宜的电力来源。其他类型的能源都更昂贵的情况下，我们没有理由停止使用太阳能。这进一步印证了一个观点——全球范围内对可再生能源的持续使用与推广，具备坚实的基础。

　　Q：当前，各种创新技术正在快速发展。尤其是在过去的两年里，人工智能几乎成为所有领域的热门词汇。请问ING如何利用区块链和人工智能等技术来提高与可持续发展相关的数据透明度和信息披露？您认为技术在未来的可持续金融中将扮演什么角色？

　　A：首先，AI带来的电力消耗值得关注。预计在未来十年，AI每年将占全球电力消耗的1%至2%。这是一个不容忽视的数字，值得我们高度重视。

　　然而，AI的潜在效益也有望带来深远的影响。特别是在数据收集和流程自动化方面——包括我们自身及客户的流程——AI有望显著提升我们监测与追踪进展的能力。

　　尽管我们对这些进步寄予厚望，但我们也清楚这仍是一个复杂领域，需要谨慎处理。我们目前正在探索多个应用场景，以确定我们可以在多大程度上利用客户数据来实现我们自身的目标，并将其整合进我们的系统中。不过，这仅仅是个开始，预测这些变化的全面影响仍然具有挑战性。但我认为，随着这些技术的不断发展，我们将能够更好地监控和管理它们的发展。

　　Q：尽管可持续投资的理念已得到广泛接受，但必须承认，ESG似乎在某些地区遇冷，由于经济压力和其他因素，一些公司和金融机构对气候行动的热情正在减弱。您如何看待这一现象？您对气候金融和可持续投资的未来趋势有何展望？

　　A：正如我之前提到的，我认为气候变化是我们每个人都能切实感受到的一个非常现实的问题。我们认识到，在应对气候变化方面，我们有责任发挥作用。我们致力于尽自己的一份力量，并坚定地相信我们和同行的行动是有科学依据的。

　　未来难以预测，外界当然也存在不同的观点。然而，我所在的欧洲，在这方面拥有强烈的雄心，也具备健全的监管体系。欧洲中央银行（ECB）和欧洲银行管理局（EBA）在这一领域非常活跃。欧洲即将重申其对2040年气候目标的雄心，同时坚持2030年的既定目标不变。我们坚信，已经启动的转型势头不会被轻易动摇。这意味着，通过可持续金融和经济转型以迈向更可持续的未来，仍将继续成为大型企业的首要任务。我相信，这一话题在未来也将长期占据重要位置。

　　Q：我们还观察到一个有趣的现象，一些公司虽然依旧相信气候变化，并积极致力于可持续发展，但他们选择不宣传自己的努力。这种现象有时被称为“绿色沉默”。您如何看待这种现象？

　　A：我认为目前的确存在一些担忧，尤其是在诉讼风险方面。我们也看到了相互冲突的立法现象。我们生活在一个日益两极分化的世界。一方面，有人说我们在可持续发展方面做得太多，而另一些人，主要是非政府组织（NGOs），则认为我们做得不够多。这让包括银行在内的企业的处境异常复杂。你必须找到一个微妙的平衡点：你想做什么，以及如何沟通？

　　这也正是为什么，在ING，我们始终以科学为基础制定方案。我们参考来自联合国政府间气候变化专门委员会（IPCC）的见解，并参考国际能源署等权威机构的情景分析。我们根据这些研究构建自身的战略框架。否则，相关议题可能会陷入政治化，而我们希望避免这种情况。我们希望聚焦于我们身边正在发生真实变化，以及我们能够做些什么来推动必要的转型，从而确保我们人类能够继续在一个可持续的星球上生存下去。

　　我认为我们正处于一个关键时刻，重点是如何将可持续融入我们的日常实践。过去，这个话题常常被用来在战略和沟通中将一切粉饰成绿色。有些人实际上只是给事物披上一层绿色的外衣，却并未思考过这对其组织的实际意义，或者对运营带来的具体影响。我认为我们已经超越了这个阶段。

　　现在，企业都开始做功课，并自问，“我该如何采取具体行动，才能确保我的运营对气候和地球的危害更小？”关键在于切实转变他们的运营方式。这正是我们平时与客户开展的对话核心。我们当前聚焦于正在实际发生的事情，并逐年衡量进展。我们希望确保彼此能够在同一语境下沟通，并就应采取的具体举措交换意见。但我也同意，在过去的某些时候，人们过度谈论绿色和可持续，却缺乏实际行动。我认为，我们如今已经进入一个转折点——人们开始将承诺付诸实践，切实采取行动以产生实际影响。而这正是我们所试图量化的影响。

　　Q：ING的客户对可持续发展有何看法？过去几年他们的态度有什么变化吗？

　　A：我们其实早在几年前就开始与客户就此进行沟通。随着过去两三年对可持续议题的关注度不断提升，我们非常有信心，客户已经做好了充分的准备。他们了解自己需要做什么、需要如何改变，并且正在落实这些改变。

　　这一点在气候问题上表现明显，在自然与生物多样性问题方面也日益如此。我们开始看到一些客户意识到，例如，他们从特定区域抽取的水资源正在引发问题。因此，他们希望衡量并限制他们对所在运营区域的影响。他们制定了长期战略；他们希望将设施保留在这些地点，因为这些地点是他们识别出的最佳地点。但他们不想给自身的供应链制造问题。因此，他们在这方面的努力非常谨慎。尚未有客户突然退缩并表示，“不，这已经不再是一个重要议题了。” 他们希望就此展开讨论，并将其纳入决策流程。我认为他们也开始认真对待并考虑自身所面临的风险，因为供应链中断的风险非常现实，特别是在某些行业。

　　以食品行业为例。如果你是一家巧克力制造商，却因为全球变暖正在影响你获取原料的那些国家而无法再采购可可豆，那就是切实的问题。所以，我认为那些在全球有广泛布局、依赖气候敏感型资源的公司，往往走在认识这些问题的最前沿，而他们并不打算改变自己的立场。另一方面，他们正在寻求转型自身商业模式的新路径。我们与他们构建深度关系，并在这一方向上与他们紧密合作以提供支持。

　　Q：我们了解到，ING在中国也有业务。请问您如何看待近年来中国在气候治理和可持续发展方面取得的进展？

　　A：据我了解，中国在可持续发展方面正在展开大量工作。中国展现出明确的雄心，诸多也已落地。据我所知，中国设定了非常有雄心的目标，例如力争在2030年前碳达峰，并在2060年实现碳中和。这是重大且极具意义的努力，目前已出台多项政策，以推动向净零排放转型。

　　这一转型涵盖了与转型金融相关的分类标准的制定，以及债务资本市场向可持续方向的转变。值得注意的是，行业将这一转型视为对未来的投资，而不仅仅是出于合规要求。这场转型正在迅速发生，尤其是在汽车行业。欧洲历来是汽车制造业的强国，但如今中国已处于电动汽车及电池生产的前沿。此外，中国在可再生能源投资方面也处于领先地位。这些进步彰显了中国对可持续发展的坚定承诺。

　　对创新的关注已取得回报，这非常了不起。尽管欧洲起步较早，已出台多项政策，并营造了良好的可持续发展氛围，亚洲——尤其是中国——如今正以极大的热情，积极地推动变革。这一领域潜力巨大，尤其是在政府释放出明确信号、市场交易活跃的背景下。总之，我对中国推进变革的速度印象深刻。

　　Q：您对于中国的可持续发展方面有没有什么建议？或者，您认为中欧之间是否应在可持续金融领域加强对话？

　　A：我认为观点互通和方法共享非常重要。这也是我在联合国环境规划署金融倡议 (UNEP FI)以及净零银行联盟（NZBA）内讨论过的内容。我们坚信，分享想法和最佳实践，并对比成功经验和遇到的挑战，是加速经济转型必不可少的重要环节。我们需要不断更新战略，并以开放的心态面对和解决我们面临的紧迫问题。

　　Q：最后，您对于ING在可持续发展方面的经验是否还有想补充或分享的内容？

　　A：我唯一想强调的一点是，气候问题确实是我们起步的领域，而这是有充分理由的。我们可以通过二氧化碳排放量或其等效排放量来衡量气候影响，这一做法已持续相当长一段时间。然而，自然与生物多样性问题都与气候密切相关，这两个领域实际上也密不可分。我认为，我们在不久的将来必须在这一方面取得更多进展，这至关重要。各类产业活动给自然带来的压力——无论是通过用水、污染、土地使用还是森林砍伐——都是巨大的。以ING为例，我们正积极开展相关工作。我们希望与全球更多伙伴展开合作，特别是与我们的同行，共同开发衡量进展的方法论。我认为，这将成为像UNEP FI或NZBA等联盟探讨的重要议题。这些平台为交流思想、共同努力取得进展提供了理想场所。正如我们在应对气候变化方面所做的那样，必须衡量其影响，并逐步减少对环境的影响。我认为这将成为未来几年工作的重中之重。

　　Q：您认为，为什么生物多样性保护和其他环境议题尚未引起足够重视？

　　A：我认为生物多样性保护等问题具有复杂性，衡量像水资源使用这类领域的影响并非易事。例如，当我们谈论水资源紧张地区，以及被消耗并返回自然的淡水量时，这些指标的量化本身就颇具挑战性。污染问题亦是如此。我们究竟在衡量什么？我们评估的是哪些类型的污染？我们又该如何设计情景来衡量影响随时间推移的减少？这需要深入的理解和数据，而这些目前仍较为欠缺。但考虑到所涉及的利害关系，我们必须朝这一方向迈进。我们是自然的一部分，如果自然出了问题，人类也难以独善其身——事实上我们已经在一定程度上感受到了这一点。因此，我们认为企业、行业和政府必须将这个问题置于议程的更高优先级。

　　以下为英文对话原文：

　　Q: We understand that ING aims to put sustainability at the heart of what you do. Why does ING prioritize sustainability? How does ING integrate ESG criteria into its financial strategies and decision-making processes? Can you provide examples of how sustainability related considerations have influenced specific investment or lending decisions?

　　A: This is a very broad topic and is a very relevant question initially. Why are we paying so much attention to it? I think we always try to start with the facts and scientific feedback from real research on the topic. We've accumulated more and more data points, and at some point, it became clear to us that the world needs to transition to a different type of economy—a low-carbon economy. As a bank, we finance the real economy, so we have a role to play and we want to do our part. Essentially, we want to help our clients reduce their emissions. We also want to finance the future vision of a low-carbon world and the solutions and technologies required. And we really want to find ways to include everyone and enable people to take action on climate. We are both a corporate and a retail bank, so we serve the entire spectrum of clients, from very large corporations to private individuals. We really want our approach to cover all segments of clients that we have.

　　But it's really about how we can support that transformation and transition. We started by looking at where to begin and identifying the most emitting sectors that we finance and want to help transform. That's where we see our role. Coming back to the concrete steps, first, we look at what we finance. For that, we examine the data we have on our clients. Then we look at whether they are transforming their processes and businesses, and how we can support them.

　　So, there are two main aspects to our approach. First, we focus on client engagement to ensure we include everyone and assess how our plans are impacting them. We look at what we call their transition plans—essentially, what measures they have in place to transition to a low-carbon economy. We've developed methodologies to assess this and have evaluated around 2,000 of our major clients. We examine the quality of their public disclosures, how extensive they are, what plans they have in place, how they report their emissions, what targets they've set for themselves, and their overall strategy.

　　Based on this assessment, we engage in conversations with them. This allows us to focus on the best performers and ensure we're financing those moving in the right direction. But it’s also about pushing others to change. At some point, if we see that a client's direction doesn't align with our goals, we might let them know that we're not comfortable and ultimately may decide not to finance them anymore. However, our primary intention is to understand and engage with our clients to drive that change.

　　The second aspect is about steering our own portfolio, specifically in terms of decarbonizing our loans. We've integrated climate considerations into our decision-making process. When we lend to the most emitting sectors—and we focus on 12 key sectors as part of our Terra approach—we ensure that the CO2 intensity or emissions of those clients align with our ambition to decarbonize our loan portfolio. So, we use data to make informed financing decisions, always starting with engaging with our clients.

　　Q: In the investment field, risks and opportunities are almost the primary concerns. How do you think incorporating environmental and social factors into decision-making can help in risk management? Additionally, what investment opportunities related to sustainable development do you see in the present and over the next five years?

　　A: So, when we look at environmental and social factors, we consider both sides of the coin. We examine the opportunities as well as the challenges. As I mentioned earlier when discussing why we're doing this, we're convinced that sustainability is a significant business opportunity. Well, transitioning the world to a low-carbon economy requires massive investment—massive capital expenditure. There are numerous reports out there, but for instance, the International Energy Agency states that an additional $5 trillion per year in financing is needed to get closer to our current global warming reduction targets, aiming to limit the temperature rise to 1.5–2 degrees Celsius by 2030. That's an enormous amount.

　　As a bank, we see this as an opportunity to position ourselves early in the process. By doing so, we can stand out, get closer to our clients, and ultimately secure more business from them. One key area we're focusing on for the energy transition is renewable energy. We have an ambitious goal to significantly increase our financing for renewables, aiming to reach up to €7.5 billion per year. Essentially, we want to triple our annual commitment to this sector, in line with the agreements reached at COP 28.

　　We're also seeing this reflected in our own numbers. The number of sustainability-related deals we close is consistently growing, and we report on this annually. In 2023, we closed 792 such deals, and last year, we managed to close 835. That's a very positive trend. Additionally, we track a metric we call “Sustainable Volume Mobilized,” which captures all sustainability-related deals. We monitor the growth in this area closely, and we have seen it increase from €115 billion to €130 billion last year. We've even made this a KPI for our group management board, which shows that this strategy is fully endorsed and owned by the top of the organization. It's a clear indication that our focus on sustainability is paying off.

　　Finally, in terms of opportunity, our emphasis on this topic and our engagement with clients allows us to have much more strategic conversations with them. By being early adopters and having these strategic insights, our bankers are able to develop sector-specific knowledge. This positions them ideally to build stronger, more intimate relationships with our clients. As a result, they're perfectly placed to identify and pursue more business opportunities, particularly in strategic areas like mergers and acquisitions and corporate finance. So, this focus on sustainability is really helping us develop our business and ensure that we continue to meet our clients' needs.

　　On the other hand, there's the risk dimension. As a bank, we're all risk managers, and we need to anticipate potential issues to protect our balance sheet. Of course, we want our loans to be repaid. Climate and environmental issues, in particular, bring new risk dimensions. First, there's the physical risk. With climate change and biodiversity loss, we face increased flooding, droughts, and other challenges. This requires us to understand where our assets are located and how our clients and their value chains might be impacted. Our grasp of these climate, nature, and social elements is key to anticipating physical risks.

　　Then there's transition risk, linked to society's transformation. There's a lot happening these days, and we need to frame and embed these changes in our processes. It could be new government policies or rules, like carbon pricing, which can affect our clients' performance or the valuation of the assets we hold as collateral. Understanding these risks is crucial, as they also influence other types of risk in our balance sheets, such as liquidity and reputation risk. So, we need to capture all these risks, integrate them into our policies, and use all available data to inform and update our processes.

　　In a word, these two streams of opportunity and risk are something we work on in parallel.

　　Q: You mentioned that you believe renewable energy is an opportunity. But this year, we've seen some countries, like the US, encouraging the development of traditional energy sources again. Given this, do you still believe that renewable energy has a very promising future?

　　A: I think it's very important to take a step back from the current noise and the stress that the political environment is putting on the topic of sustainability. The world is already transitioning. Renewables are already playing a crucial role in the global economy. The need for more electricity continues to rise, and this is something the IEA reports very clearly.

　　So, I believe the demand for renewables won't change. Local governments may adjust policies to incentivize certain types of energy, but in the long term, the reality of climate change remains unchanged. We see the physical impacts of global warming every day. There may be some ups and downs, but overall, this is a trend we've already faced in the past. As we sometimes say, “The train has already left the station,” and I don't doubt the ongoing commitment to sustainability.

　　Moreover, with the scale and market share that renewables have already achieved, solar power is probably the cheapest source of electricity today. There's no reason to stop using solar when other types of energy are much more expensive. This further supports the idea that there's strong backing for the continued use and expansion of renewable energy worldwide.

　　Q: Currently, various innovative technologies are advancing rapidly. Particularly in the past two years, AI has become a buzzword in nearly every field. How is ING leveraging technology, such as blockchain and AI, to improve sustainability related data transparency and reporting? What role do you see technology playing in the future of sustainable finance?

　　A: The consumption of electricity attributed to AI is a significant concern. It is projected that over the next decade, AI will contribute an additional 1 to 2% annually to global electricity consumption. This is a substantial figure that warrants our close attention.

　　However, the potential benefits of AI are also expected to be profound. Particularly in the realms of data capture and the automation of various processes—both our own and those of our clients—AI is anticipated to greatly enhance our ability to monitor and track progress.

　　While we hold high expectations for these advancements, the subject remains complex and demands cautious handling. We are currently exploring several use cases to determine the extent to which we can leverage client data for our own purposes and integrate it into our systems. However, this is merely the beginning, and it is still challenging to predict the full impact of these changes. But I think as these technologies continue to evolve, we will be better positioned to monitor and manage their development.

　　Q: While the concept of sustainable investing has gained widespread acceptance, it must be acknowledged that there appears to be a "backlash" against ESG, with some companies and financial institutions showing waning enthusiasm for climate action due to economic pressures and other factors. What is your take on this phenomenon? What do you see as the future trends in climate finance and sustainable investing?

　　A: As I mentioned earlier, I believe climate change is a very real issue that we all experience. We recognize that we have a role to play in addressing it. We are committed to doing our part, and we are confident in the scientific basis of our actions and those of our peers.

　　It's difficult to predict the future, and there are certainly different opinions out there. However, in Europe, where I am based, there is a strong ambition and very robust regulation. The European Central Bank (ECB) and the European Banking Authority (EBA) are very active in this area. Europe is about to reaffirm its ambition for 2040, and the 2030 targets remain unchanged. We are convinced that the momentum that has started will not be derailed. This means that sustainable finance and the transformation of the economy for a more sustainable world will continue to be a top priority for large corporations in particular. I am confident that this is a topic that will remain prominent for the long term.

　　Q: We’ve also observed an interesting phenomenon where some companies still believe in climate change and are actively working on sustainable development, but they choose not to publicize their efforts. This is sometimes referred to as “greenhushing.” What are your thoughts on this phenomenon?

　　A: I think there are some concerns these days, particularly regarding litigation risk. We're also seeing the emergence of conflicting legislation. We live in a world that is becoming increasingly polarized. On one side, there are people saying we're doing too much on sustainability, while others, mostly NGOs, are saying we’re not doing enough. This makes life extremely complicated for companies, including banks. You have to find a fine balance: what do you want to do, and how do you communicate about it?

　　This is why, at ING, we base our approach on science. We take insights from the IPCC and look at scenarios from reputable organizations like the International Energy Agency. We design our approach based on these insights. Otherwise, it can become very political, and we want to avoid that. We want to focus on what's really happening around us and what we can do to facilitate the necessary transformation to ensure that we, as human beings, can continue to live on a sustainable planet.

　　I think we're at a point where the focus is on how to integrate sustainability into our daily practices. In the past, the topic was often used as a way to paint everything green in strategy and communication. Some people were really just putting a green veneer on things without considering what it truly meant for their organization or how it impacted their operations. I think we've moved beyond that phase.

　　Now, companies are doing their homework and asking, “How can I concretely take action to ensure that my operations are less harmful to the climate and the planet?” It's about genuinely changing the way they operate. That's exactly the kind of dialogue we have with our clients. We're now focused on what's actually happening and measuring progress year after year. We want to ensure we're speaking the same language and sharing views on what needs to happen concretely. But I agree that at some point, there was too much talk about green and sustainability without enough action. I think we've reached a moment where that has changed, and people are now walking the talk, really doing what's required to make an impact. That's the impact we're trying to measure.

　　Q：How do ING's customers feel about sustainable development? Have their attitudes shifted over the past few years?

　　A: We have actually been having these conversations with our clients for several years. But with the accelerated focus on sustainability over the past 2–3 years, we're quite confident that our clients have done their homework. They understand what they need to do and how they need to change, and now they're implementing those changes.

　　This is true for climate issues, and increasingly, it's also true for nature and biodiversity. We're starting to see clients who are aware, for example, that the amount of water they extract from certain areas is causing problems. So, they want to measure and limit their impact on the areas where they operate. They have long-term strategies; they know they want to keep their facilities in those locations because they're the best spots they've identified. But they don't want to create issues for their own supply chains. So, they're very mindful of their efforts in that direction. We haven't seen clients suddenly stepping back and saying, “No, this isn't a topic anymore.” They want to discuss it and consider it in their decision-making processes. I think they're also taking on board the risks they're facing because the risks of supply chain disruption, for instance, are very real, especially in some sectors.

　　Take the food sector, for example. If you're a chocolate-making company and you can't source your cocoa anymore because global warming is affecting the countries where you source it, that's a real issue. So, I think companies that have connections with various parts of the world and are dependent on climate-sensitive resources are at the forefront of understanding these issues, and they don't intend to change their stance. On the other hand, they're looking for new ways to transform their business models. We're really bonding with them and working very closely to support them in that direction.

　　Q: We understand that ING also has operations in China. How do you view China's progress in climate governance and sustainable development over the past few years?

　　A: From what I understand, there is a great deal of activity in China when it comes to sustainability. There is a clear ambition, and many initiatives are already in place. I understand that China has set very ambitious targets, such as aiming to achieve peak carbon emissions by 2030 and carbon neutrality by 2060. This is a significant effort, and numerous policies are now in place to drive the transition to net zero.

　　This transition encompasses the development of taxonomies related to transition finance and a shift in the debt capital market toward sustainability. It's noteworthy that the sector perceives this transition as an investment for the future rather than a mere compliance requirement. This transformation is occurring rapidly, especially in the automotive sector. Europe has historically been a powerhouse in automotive manufacturing, but China is now at the forefront of electric vehicle and battery production. Additionally, China is leading the charge in renewable energy investments. These advancements underscore a strong commitment to sustainability.

　　The focus on innovation has paid off, which is quite remarkable. While Europe started earlier and has established many policies and a positive climate around sustainability, Asia, and China in particular, are now driving change enthusiastically and remarkably. There is a lot of potential in this area, especially with the clear signals from the government and the transactions taking place in the market. I am quite impressed with what I have learned and the pace of change in China.

　　Q: Do you have any recommendations for China regarding sustainable development? Or do you think there should be enhanced dialogue between China and Europe in the realm of sustainable finance?

　　A: Sharing views and comparing approaches is extremely insightful. This is something we've discussed within the UNEP FI Banking Board, where I serve, and also in the NZBA circle. We truly believe that sharing ideas and best practices, as well as comparing both successes and challenges, is essential for accelerating the transformation of the economy. We need to continuously renew our strategies and be open to facing and tackling the urgent issues we're confronted with.

　　Q: Considering we're about to wrap up the interview, do you have any last thoughts or further insights to share about ING's experience in sustainable development?

　　A: Perhaps the only point I'd like to emphasize is that climate is indeed the area where we started, and for good reason. We can measure climate impacts through CO₂ emissions or their equivalents, which has been the case for quite some time. However, closely connected to climate is the issue of nature and biodiversity, and these two areas are truly interlinked. I think it's crucial that we make progress in this area in the near future. The pressure that industries are putting on nature—whether it's through water usage, pollution, land use, or deforestation—is immense. At ING, for instance, we're actively working on this. We want to collaborate with more parties around the world, particularly our peers, to develop methodologies for measuring progress. I believe this is definitely a topic that forums like UNEP FI or the NZBA will bring to the table. These platforms are ideal for exchanging ideas and working together to make progress. Just as we do with climate, it's essential that we measure the impact and, over time, reduce it. I think this will be absolutely key for the next few years.

　　Q: Why do you think biodiversity conservation and other environmental issues haven't garnered sufficient attention?

　　A: I think part of the complexity stems from the fact that measuring impact in areas like water usage is not straightforward. For instance, when we talk about water stress regions and the amount of fresh water consumed and returned to the environment, quantifying this is challenging. The same applies to pollution. What exactly are we measuring? What types of pollution are we assessing, and how do we design scenarios to measure the reduction of impact over time? This requires a deep understanding and data that, for now, are still lacking. But we need to move in this direction given the stakes involved. We are part of nature, and if nature is in trouble, humanity will be too, as we're already seeing to some extent. That's why we see it as crucial for companies, industries, and governments to prioritize this issue higher on their agendas.

      （实习生朱玥宁对此文亦有贡献）

　　新浪财经ESG评级中心简介

　　新浪财经ESG评级中心是业内首个中文ESG专业资讯和评级聚合平台，致力于宣传和推广可持续发展，责任投资，与ESG（环境、社会和公司治理）价值理念，传播ESG的企业实践行动和榜样力量，推动中国ESG事业的发展，促进中国ESG评估标准的建立和企业评级的提升。

　　依托ESG评级中心，新浪财经发布多只ESG创新指数，为关注企业ESG表现的投资者提供更多选择。同时，新浪财经成立中国ESG领导者组织论坛，携手中国ESG领导企业和合作伙伴，通过环境、社会和公司治理理念，推动建立适合中国时代特征的ESG评价标准体系，促进中国资产管理行业ESG投资发展。

责任编辑：李欣然